Flexibility/Mobility
An EliteFTS Roundtable Discussion
With Jim Wendler, Mark McLaughlin, Bob Youngs, Alwyn Cosgrove, Tom Deebel,
Jason Ferruggia, Julia Ladewski, Dave Tate, and Mike Hope
This roundtable was posted on the EliteFTS website a few years ago. The
participants may or may not hold the same opinions today, as much has changed in
the field and all know more today than they did then.
Jim Wendler: I always find it funny when I read books and studies
knocking the value of stretching and detailing how bad it is for you, but then I
read the rehab section of our website and all I see is, “You need to do more
stretching and more mobility work.” I remember Bob making a comment about a year
ago to Dave saying, “We may have blown off stretching and it may not have
prevented all of our problems, but it certainly could have made us a little
healthier” (paraphrased by the way).
Stretching and mobility work, if done at all, can be such a positive thing for
both athletes and lay-persons alike. Unfortunately, few people want to devote
any time—even 15 minutes a day—to developing these traits. They’ll give the
television four hours of their time but zero minutes to their own body.
So let’s discuss this, and you can tell me how wrong I am.
Mark McLaughlin: We begin all sessions with an active warm up for 8–10
minutes (sled dragging, jump rope, elliptical, and medicine ball throws into the
ground) followed by a dynamic warm up. Then we move on to hip/hurdle mobility
and finally to EQI (isometric lunges, isometric one-legged squats, and isometric
push-ups). Our athletes have never performed any static stretching
pre-/post-workout and have had no soft tissue injuries over the past three
years. The decision not to static stretch was based on my conversations with Val
Nasedkin as well as on my own training. Over the course of 25 years, I’ve never
had any soft tissue injury, and I’ve never performed any static stretching. At
the Verkhoshansky seminar back in February 2005, the first statement out of
Verkhoshansky’s mouth was don’t train like a bodybuilder and don’t static
stretch.
Bob Youngs: Okay, I’m really old. If I don’t stretch now and stretch a
lot, I’m in pain. I stretch every night and before every workout. I like to do
dynamic stretching before my workouts along with mobility work. Every night, I
do static stretching and more mobility work. I really like Pavel’s stuff on
stretching. I think the bottom line is does stretching make you feel better or
not? It makes me feel better so I do it.
Also, the majority of athletes mentioned here are high school athletes. When I
was in high school, I could break out into a dead sprint at any point with no
warm up. If I were to try that right now, I can’t even imagine the catastrophe
that would occur.
Alwyn Cosgrove: The problem has become one of overreaction (as usual).
We learned that static stretching wasn’t the best thing for power athletes (even
though I think the studies aren’t great). Smart coaches like Mark studied the
information, made an informed decision, and replaced it with dynamic mobility
work. The majority of coaches just replaced it with nothing, which was never the
message. So now we have kids doing NO mobility work.
In my opinion, flexibility work is necessary. Once you make flexibility part of
your program, we can debate what “type” of flexibility training is best. The
problem is the majority of programs don’t address it at all.
Static stretching is a tool. I use it. There are times when I feel that it’s
useful. In my experience (competitive martial arts), guys used to do hours of
static stretching, and they’d kick your head off. I think there’s enough
anecdotal evidence to show that it helps athletes remain healthy over the long
term.
All of my athletes do flexibility work. That doesn’t mean they stretch nor does
it mean they do static stretching. It might mean they just do deep lunges, etc.
Tom Deebel: Personally, I think that static stretching can help keep
down myofascial restrictions. I’ve done it daily from 15–25 years of age and was
injury free. There wasn’t much information about dynamic work available back
then. Now I would include both.
Another funny thing, after my car accident earlier this year, I started back
with traditional chiropractic work. Somehow, my flexibility is better. I had
neglected this and had concentrated on getting ART and myofascial release done
in lieu of traditional chiropractic work. My flexibility is fine, and I hurt
less. Of course, my training has been approximately two times per week instead
of four.
For me, I think dynamic stretching is necessary for a warm up and appropriate
athletic training. Static stretching seems to keep the muscle restrictions down.
ART or myofascial work also helps. These can be done as a regular part of prehab
if they’re accessible and your finances allow for them. And if you find a good
chiropractor, this will help. There are various misalignment problems that a
good chiropractor will fix, which will allow for more regular movement patterns.
Jason Ferruggia: Although I agree with much of what Mark said, I’m
going to have to side with Alwyn and take it a step further.
First of all, static stretching gets a bad rap from those “in the know.” For
example, these people say, “studies show that static stretching decreases power
output and makes you more injury prone.” I’ve heard this more times than I’ve
heard Pearl Jam play live and that’s a lot. I have even said this myself more
times than I can remember. The problem with this is that most of the studies
that have “proven” this absolutely suck. Sure, if you hold a static stretch for
a prolonged amount of time and then attempt to lift a heavy weight, you will be
weaker. Duh...
As Alwyn has said in the past, you can prove anything. You can even prove that
strength training makes you weaker. I’m all for dynamic warm ups and PNF
stretching before practice, games, events, or workouts. However, this absolutely
doesn’t constitute optimal flexibility work. To gain flexibility, you must train
flexibility. You wouldn’t expect to get stronger by lifting only three to four
times per week for ten minutes. So how can you expect to get more flexible by
doing the same?
Now, before someone argues and says that most of the movements you need to get
into position on the playing field are really a matter of mobility and not
flexibility (I don’t totally agree), what about injury prevention and stride
length? Someone might argue that this involves dynamic flexibility. And I agree.
However, I don’t think that studies and real world experience show any
correlation between static and dynamic flexibility. I don’t want my athletes
taking the field without being able to touch their toes.
I’ve had the misfortune of working with some chronically tight athletes. In
cases like these where tight hip flexors and/or hamstrings cause back pain,
static stretching is an absolute necessity. It has been pointed out that static
stretching after training or playing is a waste of time, and I agree. In that
state, the muscle is too wound up and tight to receive any optimal benefits from
stretching. The optimal timing would be four to six hours later. However, in
some cases when I know the athlete absolutely needs to stretch but won’t do it
on his own, I may do some light static stretching post-workout. As Alwyn and I
have often discussed, there is optimal and there is reality.
I know for a fact that static stretching on it’s own or PNF stretching followed
by static stretching (even better) as a separate recovery workout done at night
while watching TV makes a huge difference in flexibility gains and recovery.
As another example, I have an athlete who is 16-years-old and has the worst
static flexibility you’ve ever seen. He can barely touch his mid-quads. This is
a kid who has to do static stretching. There is no study that you can show me or
argument that you can make that will change my mind on this. With this
particular athlete, we do tons of static stretching before he plays and before
he trains. If he doesn’t do this, he can’t even come close to squatting. The key
to doing static stretching before activity is to hold the stretch for no more
than ten seconds. Another trick I like to employ is to briefly contract the
muscle immediately upon cessation of the stretch. Repeat as many times as
necessary.
I’ll use a mistake that I made in the past to end my argument. I had a kid
several years back who was nearly identical in body type and flexibility as the
one mentioned above. I was in my anti-static stretching mode at the time. He
only did his dynamic warm up and PNF stretching, and he actually got pretty good
at it. His flexibility looked pretty good after a few months. However, he
started to develop severe back problems as he got bigger and stronger. He went
to two different doctors. The problem was a simple lack of hamstring
flexibility. I was young and naive and believed the “studies.” I decided not to
have this kid static stretch when it was apparent that that is what he needed.
As soon as we started a serious static stretching regimen, he was back on top
and feeling great.
I will go with what Alwyn said—if static stretching sucks, why does every
martial artist on the planet do it? They all seem to “possess the flexibility of
a martial artist.” Or is that a (static stretching like it’s going out of style)
gymnast...
Julia Ladewski: Here are my thoughts on the flexibility issue. As
everyone else said, I won’t do any static stretching prior to any training. I
always do dynamic/movement-related and mobility work. However, as Jason stated,
there are just some athletes who need static stretching. In the real world, it
would be great to do PNF on all of my athletes, but that just isn’t going to
happen. And as much as you tell a kid that he/she needs to do stretching on
his/her own time, they’re not going to do it. So, if there is a kid with a
serious problem, we’ll spend time doing static stretching post-workout. I find
that this is a huge issue with our extremely tall basketball players. We have
also found that static stretching relieves most nagging back problems.
I still prefer PNF stretching over static stretching, but we can’t discount
static stretching as not useful. Personally, as a “power” athlete, I do dynamic
and band stretching more than static stretching, but I still find that static
stretching is helpful. To get the most out of static stretching, it has to be
consistent. I don’t know how many athletes come to me to get stretched every
other day or a couple times a week and then wonder why it’s not helping them.
Just like every other training concept, static stretching is a tool. Use it when
necessary. It’s not THE answer, but it can be AN answer.
Dave Tate: This should be fun. Let’s see…is stretching important?
Let’s save that until later. For now, it’s very important to realize the huge
amount of stretching that already occurs for Elite lifters.
We will use a squat day as an example. You wake in the morning tight as hell
from a night’s sleep. You make your way into the bathroom to “drop the boys off
at the pool.” There you go, stretch number one (hamstrings, groin). You also get
a great lower back stretch as you reach for a magazine. Let’s not forget the use
of the obliques as you wash the O ring. Then you slip on your sandals and head
to the gym.
Here’s where the stretching really begins. Oh, I forgot. You get a great
shoulder and lat stretch as you reach for your Egg McMuffin at the drive
through. Now, in the gym, you get a great warm up just changing into your
training gear. This gets your core temp up so you’re ready to get into your full
stretching program.
First—putting your shoes on. Chucks are the best for this. This gives you a
great lower back stretch because you have to stay bent over for some time to get
those things laced up. Second—your suit. This is definitely the most underrated
dynamic stretching program on earth. The bending over and tugging on the squat
suit is great for the hamstrings and lower back as well as the shoulders. As the
suit works its way up, you need to hang the straps from a bar and kick like hell
from front to back and side to side (hip flexors, adductors, and abductors).
After 15 minutes or so, you’re sweating like mad from this flexibility program.
Third—the only thing left to stretch out is the pecs and delts. Well, no
problem! All you have to do is get under the bar. Never mind all the scrapes to
the back of your head as you try to duck under, just keep going. After a few
tries, you’ll be there.
There you go—the best pre-training warm up of all time. Oh, I forgot. The cool
down…screw it! You worked hard. Grab a can of Copenhagen and a Dr. Pepper and
hit the road.
Okay, is this how I feel even after all I have been through? You bet your ass it
is. You may be asking, “How can you say this? Look what it did to you?” Well,
you’re right, but let’s remember that I had over 18 years of breaking records
before I broke down, and I never stretched. So, now you may say, “Well, maybe if
you did, you wouldn’t have been hurt.”
My reply…yes, this could be true. However, maybe I would’ve also lifted 60
percent of what I did do. You can’t change the past or say this and that. You
can only look at what was done. While one might say that I wouldn’t have been
hurt, I would say, screw you. Without the hell I went through and the injuries I
had to suffer, I never would have been the lifter I was. Case in point—if I
never had torn my pec off, I never would have seen the need to move to Columbus
and train with Louie. So yes, I should have been stretching so that I didn’t
tear my pec. But then maybe I would still be a bouncer in a strip club with a
500-lb bench. Everything happens for a reason.
Did the lack of stretching hurt my strength? I highly doubt it. That is until
the last few years. Now we’re getting somewhere.
Let’s say I needed a flexibility rate of three on a scale of 1–10 to do my
sport. Anything over three is really a waste of training time (this time would
be better spent training weak points). I was over a three for my entire career
until the last few years when it hit a two. When you fall under the level needed
for your sport, you have a problem (weak point) that needs to be addressed. With
training economy in mind, something has to give for me to bring it back over a
three. So while flexibility and mobility had to become part of the training,
certain other training elements had to be taken away.
I guess my point is—if it’s a weakness that is holding you back, fix it. If not,
focus on what will make you better.
Bob Youngs: Dave, you wrote nine million words and never answered
Jim’s questions.
Mike Hope: We must remember that much of medicine in general, and
sports medicine in particular, is based on historical precedent. When historical
precedents are based solely on hypotheses that have more recently been proven
incorrect, the individual must choose to (a) continue treatment (stretching) on
the basis of a known incorrect idea of pathophysiology or (b) change to a
treatment on the current knowledge of pathophysiology and pathobiology.
Of course, the potential side effect of any new treatment (likely to be
unknown) must be weighed against the potential side effects of the historical
treatment (more likely to be known). The art, and even science, of medicine then
becomes the ability to weigh all of the available information at hand without
discriminating the prior information and to be able to judge which is most
appropriate for the athlete seated across from you.
Why do most injuries occur during eccentric contractions which cause damage
within the normal range of motion? If injuries occur in normal ranges, why would
increased motion prevent injuries?
Dave Tate: Perfect! To add a few more questions, why spend time
training something that may already be above the baseline needs of the
individual or sport when this time should be spent improving a specific weakness
that is below baseline (can we say strength)? Who determines what is optimal and
what isn’t optimal, and how are sport and individual differences weighed?
Regarding muscle balance, isn’t it true that a pitcher will have one arm
stronger than the other? Will a sprinter have the same quad hamstring ration as
a fencer? Can’t overuse still be a factor of time in the sport? If someone
trains at a high level in a sport for over 20 years, are we to expect that all
injuries can be avoided?
Competitive athletics is about performance first and health second. Anyone
who says differently is full of crap and has never pushed the body to places it
wasn’t designed to go. The bottom line is the body wasn’t designed to compete in
high level competitive athletics. We train it to do what it isn’t intended to
do. In this event, it’s safe to say “sh*t happens,” and it’s part of the game.
Alwyn Cosgrove: Dave, you bring up some good points. In reference to
your first point, I think it sums up all of performance training for sport.
Similarly, when working with a fencer who has a current strength level of six
(and he needs a four), your performance enhancement work will involve limited
max strength work.
And what determines what is optimal and not optimal? I have no idea. Any
muscle strength imbalance around a joint that’s likely to cause injury needs to
be looked at though. The topic of muscle balance is a great topic and very
interesting.
For your question regarding overuse injuries and time, I don’t think so.
However, I’d suggest that the attitude that all injuries are inevitable is
flawed. Can better training and restoration methods reduce injuries? I think so.
Competitive athletics is about performance first and health second. I agree with
this, but I think at least some of the sh*t that happens is avoidable. I have no
doubt that some of my injuries from fighting were unavoidable, but I can also
say that there were some and some issues that remain today that could have been
avoided.
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